Watch out, the Marshalls are getting radical again. The latest dilemma: what to do about Santa. In this post I am going to write the reasons Ariel and I have come to for eliminating Santa from our family Christmas experience. We’ve only just started exploring this idea, and we would love to hear about the family traditions you have established with or without Santa (in fact while I’m on that subject, check these posts here and here, both of which discuss excellent Christmas traditions that have nothing to do with Santa--here's another one from the Church's Christmas website). Please keep in mind that I am writing in an extreme, biased way—even beyond that which I feel on the matter. Honestly, I’m struggling with it. I’m writing this for my own therapy and hopefully to foster some good responses.
Testimony Meeting. Last Sunday a good man in our ward talked about his “radical” decision to eliminate Santa from his family. He said they focus their Christmas season on the Savior. Later in the meeting, a woman bore her testimony and in it she mentioned this man’s 5 year-old son. She said that in primary when asked what they were grateful for, this little boy said he was grateful for Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. Is there a correlation between the lack of Santa and the testimony of this boy?
Devotional. Then there’s the First Presidency Devotional. I thought during the devotional, “It seems like they really hit on the same message each year: avoid consumerism and materialism during Christmas and focus on serving others and remembering the Savior.” Then it occurred to me that I don’t heed their advice. There is typically some sort of family testimony meeting around Christmas, and we love to read the scriptures and sing the hymns about his birth. But the focus has typically been on Santa, presents, food, etc.
Parental Roles. Finally, Abe has learned who Santa is and LOVES him. He always wants us to draw “ho ho ho,” always wants us to sing “ho ho ho,” loves looking at pictures of him, etc. He used to request songs, stories, and pictures of Jesus but has currently lost interest. That could have made the biggest impact on this consideration. I have a duty to teach my son the Gospel, which centers around the Savior and His Atonement. I will not have Him be replaced by a fat man in a red suit, even if it is only one month of the year.
I recognize that people celebrate Santa with good intent. It's the spirit of the season. It's a long-standing tradition and there is significant cultural pressure to participate. I, for one, loved Santa growing up, and feel none the worse for believing in him until 7th grade (I was a late bloomer). All of that said, here is a bulleted argument against Santa:
- Santa isn’t real
- Kids learn to behave for someone who isn’t real
- Kids still get presents even if they don’t behave
- Parents teach children similar things about Santa and Jesus, except one isn't real
- To quote Bill Watterson’s articulate Calvin, “Deep down, I doubt my greed for presents can overcome my desire to misbehave.” A double-edged sword.
- Protecting Santa’s true identity often involves deceiving your children
- His focus is giving, but kids focus on the getting—promoting this materialism we seek to avoid
- Some children are really heart-broken to find the truth, which not only causes them grief but potentially dismantles the trust between them and their parents (we know of a close friend who is completely honest about Santa with his kids because of this kind of experience as a child)
- Most importantly, Christmas is about the birth of Jesus Christ and everything He stands for (giving, spending time with family, showing gratitude, etc). That’s one area where Santa fails to deliver the goods—in fact he often distracts, competes for attention, and causes contention in those very crucial areas. Anything that does not promote the Gospel, especially during this time of year, distracts from it.
Alternatives. So what can you do? Can you still have fun? Can you still have presents? Can you still enjoy great food and great company? I believe you can. Here are some ideas.
- Give gifts among family members. They are expressions of your love. Nothing needs to be from Santa. To keep the focus off of getting as many presents as possible, you could:
- Give four presents: something you want, something you need, something to eat, and something to read (that’s what we’re doing this year)
- Give three presents to each family member, representing and in memory of the three gifts given to the Savior at His birth (this idea came from Dr. Eva Witesman, one of my brilliant MPA professors)
- Focusing on the gospel is exciting! What could be more exciting than considering the day the most important, perfect person in the history of mankind was born! What is more fun than talking about how through Him we can live as families forever! If we can’t find excitement, enjoyment, and even fun in the Gospel, then we’re in for a long eternity.
So what do I say? Break out the holly berries, the ivy, the mistletoe, the tree, the lights, the egg nog (none for me, thanks), the food, the family, the fun, the presents, the whole Christmas experience. But above all, focus on the One who makes all of that and everything else possible.
47 comments:
I've actually thought about this for when I raise my own family, and I think I am going to get rid of the fat man with the bag.
First of all- I don't think I'll be into lying to my kids. Partly because if I'm getting them presents, sweet, I want credit.
Second of all- he does take away from the true spirit of Christmas. I don't like what December focuses on- as opposed to what it should focus on, and what HE forces it to focus on. YOU said it perfectly.
Even if that means my kids are gonna be the smart-alec rascals that ruin it for all the other kids, so be it. My kids are gonna know they're cool even if the other kids hate them.
I was also a late bloomer Andyroo so don't feel dumb. I think I remember writing in my journal something like "I'm gonna have to ask Mom and Dad if Santa's real before I have kids, so I can know whether or not I need to put presents under the tree for my kids." hah. 6th or 7th? Yeah.
You guys ARE kind of controversial arentcha?
The biggest problem I've had with Santa isn't, as my 6-year-old Julia puts it, that Santa "is a fun trick you play on your kids," but rather the incidious parallels between Santa and Christ that may later serve to undermine faith. Santa is an unseen, powerful, mystical being who provides gifts. Belief in Santa is very closely related to faith--except faith is a "hope for things which are not seen, which are true" (Alma 32:21). Belief in Santa is a hope for things which are not seen but are not true. My fear is that promoting trust in Santa would, when the "trick" is found out, undermine the concept of faith in unseen things--and limit my credibility for distinguishing true things from untrue things.
We've not entirely eliminated Santa, but we are very transparent about who and what he is, and why so many people like to play the "game" at Christmastime.
I had a(nother) interesting conversation with Julia on Tuesday as we were driving home. I was asking her what we could do to be more excited about Jesus at Christmas than about presents and the Santa game. We talked about how the gifts we get at Christmas--the material things-- won't make us happy, but how the gifts Jesus gave us DO make us happy. I wanted to brainstorm about activities or traditions we could employ to make the Christ-centered Christmas even more compelling than the commercial Christmas.
I wondered aloud about doing service to others the way Jesus asked us to, and with a glee I would never have anticipated, Julia shouted "yes! Let's do that! Let's help people! I love doing that!" And then immediately suggested a scheme for "bursting into" her friend's house and cleaning the whole place for her mother. (Except, Julia noted, they might not appreciate the "bursting in" part).
I think it's easy to be afraid that we're taking something away from the kids when we take away Santa--or the myth surrounding Santa. But I think the human soul, even the very young human soul, knows the difference between real joy and the fleeting pleasures of the world.
You've presented some very thought-provoking issues in regard to Santa. Thanks for the inspiring message you are providing! Everyone should read this post!!!
1. I haven't thought about this subject until you brought it up to me a couple days ago. I feel like this is an absolutely essential thought-process to go through regardless of whether or not you decide to play the "game" with your children or not.
2. I believe that turning from the idea of consumerism and "me, me, ME!" is so critical. (not only for children, but for adults). Maybe this is one small way to make a change in that regard?
3. I LOVE your idea of giving four gifts: something you want, something you need, something to eat, and something to read.
4. You are my heroes. The end.
I've been completely mulling over this the last few weeks now that my oldest son gets the whole Santa idea. I told my husband how I was frustrated with the whole give me give me attitude commercialism fosters and how I wanted the focus in our home to be more on the Savior than anything else. Hhhhmm... more food for thought, thank you!
Thanks for the post. I was just thinking about this subject last night, but you've articulated it much better than I was doing.
Growing up in my home, my mom and dad taught who St Nicholas was. A saint who gave generously to the poor. I wouldn't say we lost out on anything not "believing" in santa claus. But we learned where he originated from and what he represented. Scott and I have focused our christmas on teaching Lincoln more about baby Jesus.
Another thing my family likes to celebrate is the Birthday of Joseph Smith which is on the 24th of December. We have in recent years gone to see the joseph smith movie on that day:) I love when Christmas is centered on Christ. It means so much more to me.
Aw, my family does a big Joseph Smith birthday party every year when we eat by candlelight and have stew and cornbread and talk about his life. Though his birthday is actually on December 23rd but I'm guessing that's what Natalie meant to type.
Thanks A-team! I grew up believing in Santa, and believing in Christ, and although I don't believe in Santa anymore, my testimony of Jesus Christ is firm---I think as firm as it could be even had I never believed in Santa as well. But I have been thinking about this for awhile, and although growing up I thought parents who didn't "do Santa" were really boring and way too practical, recently I have come to believe it may be best to teach children early on that Santa is a fun holiday symbol of giving, but that he is not real. (Of course, we'll have to see what my hypothetical husband thinks about this.) If only so that they can be certain that I would never deceive them, whatever the circumstances. "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, That our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins."
I haven't really thought about it either until a few days ago when we were talking about it in class. I really appreciate the way you presented your case here. I definitely agree that more focus needs to be placed on the reason we even have Christmas in the first place. I think the way we decide to do that is a matter that is important enough for thoughtful consideration like you have done here.
But, I just had an interesting thought. I don't know if "Santa" is necessarily the thing we should be eliminating, I think it is the excessive emphasis on presents that needs consideration. Now, I know that Santa is the one who brings presents, so naturally he gets equated with the commercialism and greed, but after all, Santa is not real. Who actually gets the presents? It is the parents. What if Santa only brought one present? What if he didn't bring anything at all and he was just another figure that we talk about at Christmas, like Frosty the Snowman (which is what I think people do when they decide not to have their kids believe in Santa).
So I know I am kinda playing devil's advocate, but what I am getting at is that simply eliminating Santa won't automatically free us from the commercialism that we so dislike about the Christmas season. We personally, as parents (or future parents :) need to take the emphasis of presents like you have suggested here.
So basically I am not really playing devil's advocate because I completely agree with everything you said. I guess the devil's advocate part came from the idea that maybe we could keep Santa but that he would just bring one or two presents. And I really like your four presents idea too. Oh, and I also think you guys are amazing :)
We haven't decided what to do about Santa Claus yet (Sam's not going to "get it" for this year anyway), and I appreciate your thoughtful post. Maybe it would be good to explain that Santa (who has seriously evolved over the centuries and is different in every country) is helping Jesus by giving to others, even symbolically, and that we should focus on doing this also. Sort-of along those lines, here's a story I like (esp. the concept of anonymous giving):
"I remember my first Christmas adventure with Grandma. I was just a kid. I remember tearing across town on my bike to visit her on the day my big sister dropped the bomb: 'There is no Santa Claus,' she jeered. 'Even dummies know that!'
"My Grandma was not the gushy kind, never had been. I fled to her that day because I knew she would be straight with me. I knew Grandma always told the truth, and I knew that the truth always went down a whole lot easier when swallowed with one of her world-famous cinnamon buns. I knew they were world-famous, because Grandma said so. It had to be true.
"Grandma was home, and the buns were still warm. Between bites, I told her everything. She was ready for me. 'No Santa Claus!'
she snorted. 'Ridiculous! Don't believe it. That rumor has been going around for years, and it makes me mad, plain mad. Now, put on your coat, and let's go.'
"'Go? Go where, Grandma?' I asked. I hadn't even finished my second world-famous, cinnamon bun.
"'Where' turned out to be Kerby's General Store, the one store in town that had a little bit of just about everything. As we walked through its doors, Grandma handed me ten dollars. That was a bundle in those days. 'Take this money,' she said, 'and buy something for someone who needs it. I'll wait for you in the car.' Then she turned and walked out of Kerby's.
"I was only eight years old. I'd often gone shopping with my mother, but never had I shopped for anything all by myself. The store seemed big and crowded, full of people scrambling to finish their Christmas shopping. For a few moments I just stood there, confused, clutching that ten- dollar bill, wondering what to buy, and who on earth to buy it for...
"I thought of everybody I knew: my family, my friends, my neighbors, the kids at school, the people who went to my church. I was just about thought out, when I suddenly thought of Bobby Decker. He was a kid with bad breath and messy hair, and he sat right behind me in Mrs. Pollock's grade-two class. Bobby Decker didn't have a coat. I knew that because he never went out for recess during the winter. His mother always wrote a note,
telling the teacher that he had a cough, but all we kids knew that Bobby Decker didn't have a cough, and he didn't have a coat. I fingered the ten-dollar bill with growing excitement. I would buy Bobby Decker a coat!
"I settled on a red corduroy one that had a hood to it. It looked real warm, and he would like that. 'Is this a Christmas present for someone?' the lady behind the counter asked kindly, as I laid my ten dollars down.
"'Yes,' I replied shyly. 'It's ... for Bobby.'
"The nice lady smiled at me.
"I didn't get any change, but she put the coat in a bag and wished me a Merry Christmas.
"That evening, Grandma helped me wrap the coat in Christmas paper and ribbons (a little tag fell out of the coat, and Grandma tucked
it in her Bible) and wrote, 'To Bobby, From Santa Claus' on it -- Grandma said that Santa always insisted on secrecy. Then she drove me over to Bobby Decker's house, explaining as we went that I was now and forever officially one of Santa's helpers. Grandma parked down the street from Bobby's house, and she and I crept noiselessly and hid in the bushes by his front walk. Then Grandma gave me a nudge. 'All right, Santa Claus,' she whispered, 'get going.'
"I took a deep breath, dashed for his front door, threw the present down on his step, pounded his doorbell and flew back to the safety of the bushes and Grandma. Together we waited breathlessly in the darkness for the front door to open. Finally it did, and there stood Bobby.
"Fifty years haven't dimmed the thrill of those moments spent shivering, beside my Grandma, in Bobby Decker's bushes. That night, I realized that those awful rumors about Santa Claus were just what Grandma said they were: ridiculous. Santa was alive and well, and we were on his team.
"I still have the Bible, with the tag tucked inside: $19.95. He who has no Christmas in his heart will never find Christmas under a tree."
I think Santa is a terrorist. Think about it! He's elusive, he sneaks in homes-planting little "packaes", eats our food, NEVER goes through customs, flys around in circles (with no flyer's manifest) and we are nervous about Osama? No one can find Santa? Who cares about nuclear plants, Santa is a dictator with hundreds of slaving elf and we don't know where or how many toy factorie he has. Where do his funds come from? Where exactly is the north Pole. You think osama has look alikes, have you ever seen a santa movie. He uses majic and has many alias. Plus, he has been watching us for years. He knows when we are sleeping, he knows when we are awake....he even knows if we've been bad or good! PLUS he sometimes kisses mommy under the missleto. He is a home wrecker. He only surfices once a year so be careful. Do NOT trust this character.
This is a fascinating subject that I just had a lengthy discussion about. I think there are two issues here: 1. Making Christ the real center of Christmas and 2. Should we teach our kids that Santa is not real?
I think there is some value of teaching about Santa, only if it is taught once for every thirty times we teach about christ.
I don't have an answer about number 2 but I am EXTREMELY passionate about questioning the status quo of what we currently embrace as a culture.
I love the idea about giving four gifts. But I will choose to give my kids something that they 1.want 2. need 3. wear 4. read.
I may or may not concur that santa is a terrorist.
No, Virginia there is no Santa Claus. And the sooner she has her hopes crushed the better she will be.
I am glad that my parents never deceived me and were always very literal. I think as a child I was not capable of understanding symbolism. I appreciated never having to deal with a Christmas tree, stockings, presents, seeing Santa, frosty the snowman, Rudolf, the Grinch, and all those things that take away from the true meaning of Christmas (not to mention those other childish figures of the Easter Bunny and tooth fairy).
I always felt bad for those other foolish children and parents that now have a weaker testimony of the gospel because they said Santa brought them gifts. They probably never even set up a manger scene, or read Luke 2. I was most upset recently when I read about Vaughn J. Featherstone and his interactions at Christmas with Santa (The Message: To Give and to Receive from the New Era). I can’t believe a member of the presiding bishopric would support lying to little kids like that; I may even write to the first presidency and see if they will address this concern.
Now I know that I have taken an extreme point of view in my comments here, but let’s stop beating up on Santa for a problem he didn’t cause. How many of us grew up with Santa Clause and Christmas? Did we turn out ok? I hear all sorts of people criticizing Santa and the problems he causes, oh wait, he isn’t real, so why does he get the blame? I personally think that if parents can’t balance commercialism and Christmas they shouldn’t blame Santa. The focus of Christmas is and should be Christ. If it is not I think there is a problem, but Christ should be the focus of Easter (not Easter egg hunts) and our lives. There is room at Christmas for Santa, and Andrew you can expect me on your doorstep in my Santa Suit as soon as I am done with finals.
Just as there are three sides of Christmas, there are three representations of Santa Claus: the commercial, the secular, and the sacred.
Commercial Santa exists because the free market economy is competing with itself for customers. He's a caricature of Babylonian society, the fake we see mocked in movies like The Polar Express, with all the gears in the back waving in robotic movements.
Secular Santa, the one who goes around on his sleigh with his reindeer, is the man the children go to visit in the North Pole in that wonderful film. He is an apparition who fulfills his duty in playing his role for children
Sacred Santa, originally known as Saint Nicholas of Myra, is and will always be one of the core symbols of true Christian spirit. I believe everybody goes through life in phases. Among other things, children need two things. They need enriched teachings and truths instilled in them from very young. But a few fun childish incentives, innocent in nature, go a long way, until they are outlived. I don't believe in secular Santa Claus anymore. But personally I loved nothing better than leaving cookies for Santa and later that night imagining him on the rooftop, when I was 6. I couldn't care less when I was 12. And I thought trick-or-treating was for "sevies" when I was 15. Santa being real had his day, and he was great in his time. Now, for me, the Spirit of Santa is the very spirit of Christ. If instilled correctly, as he was in our home, Santa can remain a symbol of love and giving and sacrifice. I think of Mrs. Darling from Disney's Peter Pan, how she considered Peter the spirit of youth, rather than a real person.
Far as the three sides of Christmas go, I abhor the commercialism, and the moneymongers who use Santa, and even Jesus, for merchandising. The secular side... I associate every wonderful secular thing about Christmas with the fun-loving Santa we meet in The Polar Express. For my part, I would need to eliminate songs like Jingle Bells, Sleigh Ride, even The Christmas Song, if I were to discard Santa, and this wonderful fun-loving feeling during Christmas. I would have to do away with getting a Christmas tree every year and putting up lights and opening presents. I believe there is merit in these traditions which, on the surface, look superficial, but deeper, have great meaning and wisdom. And the spiritual side I need not even speak for, it's so important to me.
To sum up, paraphrasing Christ, I believe it is good to leave to the secular the things that are secular, and to Christ the things that are Christ's. They can coexist.
I just want you to know that I am feeling extreme pressure to make a comment. My palms are sweating and my breathing is getting heavy. Yikes! And not only the pressure of making a comment, but actually sounding intelligent like the rest of you thinkers. Not going to happen, sorry!
But, I do know that when you become a parent, your whole world changes. I am sure you feel a lot of pressure to be the best parent out there. And each parent has to be that parent for their own individual child. I guess what I am trying to say here is that you have to do what you think is best for you and your children. If that means telling them that Santa isn't real or just having him be in the background rather than the forefront of festivities, then do what is best for your family.
Another random thought:
I think you have to take into account the huge dosage of Santa from the outside world (all the more reason to emphasize Christ in your home). Like it or not, your children are going to have friends that believe in Santa, they will talk about it at school, in primary. And do you want your children ruining it for other kids that are happy believing in him?
Wow. Fantastic discussion going on here. Thanks to everyone for your comments. I could respond individually to every comment but 1) that would take a long time and 2) it's unlikely that any of you will see this comment (except Paul who will have it emailed to him).
This is where Ariel and I have settled, for now: we will tell our children the truth about Santa, but we're not sure yet how much to make him a part of our Christmas traditions. We'll respond as our children bring him up and want to "play the Santa game." I liked other comments (Alison's for example) comparing him to other fictitious characters like Frosty, the Grinch, and Rudolph. He can be in the same category with them, and if our kids want to sing songs about him, use him as decorations, and even leave cookies and a note out for him, that's fine. We'll play Santa down by letting them take the lead on his involvement. But, we'll be upfront with them and make sure we direct the focus of our traditions on Christ.
Teaching about the historical St. Nick certainly has appeal. That seems to work well with a Christ-centered Christmas.
I read this post this morning, and have thought about it all day. So I guess I am a little late in the commenting area since AA has already replied back...
But I would like to say that Joe's comment was great. We've decided to keep Santa as part of our Christmas traditions, but it will be minor and not overly puffed up. This is the first year Jamison is "aware" of Santa. And to be honest, he is ten times more obsessed with Frosty the Snowman than with Santa. Our rule will be that the kids get one present from Santa and the rest from the parents. I hope this will eliminate the greediness/behavior aspect and simply leave it as a simple Christmas tradition.
I have many more issues with the Easter Bunny vs. the resurrection of Christ...
Thanks for your interesting, thought-provoking post. You definitely will not like Krampus, but if presents don't get the kids to behave, it might.
As a supporter of 99% of the gospel related thoughts that come out of the Marshall home I must say that unlike “Jamie,” I think that this discussion is neither “thought-provoking” or “inspiring.” Don’t get me wrong, I understand what your point is, but I am just a little surprised that a deep thinker like Andrew Marshall is actually giving Santa such deep thoughts. The scriptures “Cast the beam out of your own eye,” and “Cease to find fault one with another come to mind,” but in this case you are soliciting your reader’s opinions so I guess I don’t feel too bad about being critical of your post.
I for one have very fond memories of Santa, not sacred reminiscence, but just great memories of listening for the sound of sleigh bells on the roof of my childhood home and dreaming of catching a glimpse of Santa by our Christmas tree. I don’t remember the moment that I came to know that he wasn’t real and I certainly don’t have any repressed feelings of anger towards my parents for “deceiving” me. If anything, I am grateful that for a few years of my life I got to believe in something magic for about 30 days of the year.
Our oldest son is six, and I’m guessing that at the rate his mind is going, this could be one of the last years that he will believe in Santa. It has been fun to leave out the milk and cookies and see his and his brother’s faces Christmas morning when they discover an empty glass and half eaten cookies. When it comes down to the gifts under the tree they don’t seem to care who they came from, they just like the presents and are excited about them for a few days and then it’s back to normal life.
I guess one thing I am trying to say is that in the cynical, evil, world we live in, I think that the last thing we need to be worried about is whether our kids have a little fun believing in a fictional fat guy for a few days a year. If anything, Santa adds just a little magic and fun to our somewhat mundane lives for a small moment.
If Christ is really the issue here, lets all become Jehovah’s witnesses and forego the celebration of Christmas all together. If this is really about celebrating Christ’s birth let’s do away with the tree, the Christmas t.v. specials, the toys, the gorging on food, the lights, any song that doesn’t just celebrate the birth of Christ, and lets all just read Luke 2 on April 6th and sing “Joy to the World.” Isn’t everything about Christmas that isn’t specifically about Christ either a pagan tradition, a distraction from the true meaning of Christmas or a greedy waste of our resources. Four presents, six presents, ten presents, does it really make a difference, aren’t we kind of splitting hairs here? Straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel?
I’m sorry but I just consider Santa a non-issue. In a world with rampant murder, child abuse, drug and alcohol abuse, pornography, greed, pride, etc. etc., if this was really mine or the world’s most pressing issue, I would have to say, “way to go world, you’re doing pretty well.” If we really want to keep the focus on Christ 360 days a year lets have a discussion about how distracted and consumed most of us have become with t.v., movies, the internet, blogs:), facebook, ipod’s, texting, the pursuit of personal gain, and everything else that distracts us from our real purpose here. President Hinckley told members to buy a modest home and keep out of debt, who follows that counsel? Some, but most on east bench don’t seem to. If you’re living in a giant house and driving a beamer but teach your kids that Santa is a crock, you might feel warm and fuzzy inside, but like most, you would just be “walking in [your] own way, and after the image of [your] own god.” If anyone actually thinks that they are a better christian and parent because they don’t teach their children to believe in Santa I think that is a bit elitist and silly. (Not saying that anyone on this blog feels that way.)
I believe in Christ 100%, I also believe that the last thing he will ask me on judgement day is whether or not I taught my kids if Santa was real or not:) I Iove you Andrew, and your family, don’t take anything I said too personally. You asked for my opinion (sort of), and there it is. Like it or not, there it is. I never put in my two cents about “Dark Knight” way back when so I figured I better weigh in on this one just for fun.
Hope you have a Merry Christmas, I mean, Day of Celebrating the Birth of Our Savior.”
Dan
p.s. I’ll never forget watching the video of Joseph opening a He-Man toy at Christmas when he was about 6 or 7. He was so ecstatic that he went berserk with happiness, albeit temporary and artificial happiness. I think that present came from Santa Clause, I guess that explains why Joe is the heathen he is today:)
p.p.s I think your comment about how Santa could “potentially dismantles the trust between [kids] and their parents” was just a joke right??? No “significant cultural pressure to participate” in Christmas or Santa here by the way.
I have to agree with most of the above post. All of my memories of Santa were magical, and I don't think that there is anything wrong with allowing children to feel that excitement. I, too, think that some of the secular (not commercial) celebrations simply add to the overall atmosphere of the season. My parents were always very clear about the true importance of Christmas, and I never for a minute thought that Santa was more important than Christ.
One thing that may have helped is that we always did Christmas the Finnish way: Santa came on the night of Christmas Eve, and Christmas Day was always a more peaceful time to just enjoy being with family and really focus on Christ.
Thanks for the continued comments. I like hearing how people are finding their own solutions to the Santa/Jesus question.
Dan: I wanted to address your comment. First, I did not think it was fair for you to bring Jamie's comment into this. It clearly did provoke a lot of thoughts for you, and whether it was inspiring or not is completely subjective. I'm fine with you targeting me--that's what I was asking for, but I didn't find that very sportsmanlike.
Second, I am clearly not the only Marshall in this line of thought (see Kate's, Meredith's, and even Nonie to a degree). And on that note, the more people I've talked to lately (mostly BYU faculty and students) the more I have found that people support this idea.
Third, I never said, nor do I think, this is one of the most pressing issues of our day. It's simply something we've been thinking about. I don't think it is a non-issue (judging by the comments, including yours, it is clearly an issue) but I would never compare it to debt, murder, or pornography. I also don't feel like I have any serious problems stemming from my childhood belief in Santa (though in the post I did share an example of someone who did, which was not a joke by the way). I just believe there is a better way. In this blog we often talk about parenting, and this happens to be a relevant issue for parents and future parents.
Fourth, I don't condemn anyone else for what they do, nor am I trying to criticize or demean anyone for their choices. I simply wanted to share my thoughts. For my family, this is the "best" decision we can make in order to strengthen our faith (referencing Elder Oaks' "Good, Better, Best" talk).
Fifth, I have no problem celebrating the season with a tree, gifts, food, family, and songs (even songs about fictitious Christmas characters--we feel in our family there needs to be a difference between pretending and believing). I don't think any of them distract or detract from its meaning. You mentioned many distractions we face in this time and I completely agree with you (that merits a post itself)--I just happen to think that Santa is one more of them.
And sixth, I think the best argument that you and anyone have made is that Santa is "magic." And his magic brings excitement to children (as it did for me). I just think there are deeper feelings, and more important ones, that can be gleaned from the Christmas experience without the jolly old elf--such as love, service, gratitude, etc.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. A little "sharp" I thought, but like I said, I asked for it.
I've been thinking about this a lot since reading your post, and there's one caution I might give you. If you go the no-Santa route, you'll have to be careful that your kids don't grow up seeing Santa believers in a negative, judgmental, or inferior light. I don't think you've done that in this post, but I think those potential feelings may be one of the things that got Dan going.
There is something to be said for the magic. Christmas is the ultimate children's holiday. I've been brainstorming how to keep the focus on Christ without losing Santa. As I said, Keen and I aren't done discussing this yet. Maybe we can talk more later. Skype soon?
We did talk about this. It was actually the daughter of a rabbi who told Rachel Santa wasn't real. And when I figured out the truth at age five, I was too proud to be disappointed, and I promptly told my friend at kindergarten the next day. However, if we tell our children the truth but say that it's still a "fun game," then when other children talk about Santa with our kids, I believe our kids would just play along.
Again, this is just a personal, family decision. It doesn't matter to us what other people decide, and we'll do our best to support them in their decisions.
I would say you guys might have hit a nerve with this post. do you think? 27 page long comments is pretty nuts. Way to stir the pot a little. I think you made us all think about something we might have just taken for granted. Good work!
Well I don't know what I'll do. But either way I love this 1897 letter to the editor. I think it is just beautiful. And you need to read it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=yes+virginia+there+is+a+santa+claus&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Alright lets have one more word:
First, don’t try to make me out to be the bad guy simply because I referred to three words posted by some girl that I don’t even know. Jamie was stating her opinion that the post was “thought provoking” and “inspiring,” I was simply stating my opinion that I disagree. The fact that I happen to reference her post shouldn’t be taken personally, I should have just said that I don’t think this post is inspiring and thought provoking and just left her name out of it. There were others who expressed similar feelings and I could have used them as an example, Jamie just was the most concise about it. You’re the one that started the post with the disclaimer that you guys are being “Radical,” weren’t you expecting a little recoil? If you only want replies that agree with your point of view, just say so. If Jamie:) can state her subjective opinion shouldn’t I be able to do so as well with impunity?
Second, I never said that you were the only Marshall that had this idea, I just said that I agreed with most spiritual thought that came out of the Marshall home. Steven is a spiritual genius, I would be interested to hear what he would say about the topic, (Maybe this is a little thought provoking). Do you think that stating the fact that BYU faculty and students support this idea strengthens your argument? Haven’t you read your Nibley?:)
Third, I never said that you were comparing this to problems as severe as murder etc. I was just stating that there are SO MANY other more important, pressing issues that to put any serious time and thought into the negative impact Santa is having on yours or anyone else’s children is just a waste of time in my opinion. If you really think it is so difficult to teach a child the difference between the importance of Santa vs. Christ then perhaps you should exclude Santa. My kids just don’t seem to have a hard time understanding that Santa is a guy that brings presents and rides a sleigh and Jesus is the Son of God who brings salvation and returns in a cloud.
Fourth, if you really decide to not do the Santa thing because it hurts trust between parents and kids and distracts from Christ, how can you not think that parents that are doing the opposite are not harming their children and diminishing their children’s spirituality. Lets just tell it as it is. If I believe sweets are harmful for my kids and I know that you are giving your kids candy, I’m going to look down on your decision and condemn at least your choice to do so. On the other hand I don’t think your choice to exclude Santa hurts your child in the least bit, I just think it doesn’t matter one way or the other.
Fifth, I don’t think Santa is another distraction like television, movies, internet, video games, I think he’s just a bit of fun.
Sixth, I don’t think the best argument anyone has made is that Santa is “magical,” I think the best argument anyone has made is that it just isn’t that big of a deal, really. No one is saying that Santa is or should be the pinnacle of our children’s feelings. I completely agree that there are much much deeper feelings than those produced by belief in Santa, but that doesn’t mean that Santa is a bad thing. I just don’t don’t see a strong correlation between Santa and broken trust and neglect of Christ overall.
Anyways, I didn’t think my comment was too “sharp,” I think you took it as sharper than it was intended partly because it did not agree with your point of view. If I would have gotten on and gushed about how much I agree with you and disagree with those that are in favor of Santa, I don’t think you would have been so aghast:)
Again, you know I love you Andrew, no hard feelings, you stated your opinion and I stated mine.
Dan,
Forgive me, my friend, but I have to reply one last time, mainly to apologize and clarify.
I apologize for letting myself get ruffled over your original comment. I'm not sure exactly why I did. Paul, Seth, Joe, Liz, the Finns, and Jarilyn all disagreed with the post, and I did not single any of them out. I place blame on my reaction much more than I do on your comment.
That said, I want to be very clear that I did not post this, nor do I post anything in order to get people to agree with me. Originally I wrote the post asking for opposing views, because that's what I wanted to see. Ariel wisely recommended that that could turn things into a battlefield, and so I tempered it. But I am very interested in opposing views (as I said twice in my previous comment to you, "I was asking for it"), and again I apologize for becoming excessively combative when that's what I wanted in the first place. I did appreciate the overall back and forth on the matter, and I think we probably both gained something from it.
A couple other minor responses: I only mentioned BYU faculty and students to say that I have received a limited perspective on the matter, not to place their opinions above others. I can see how that could have been misread.
I really don't feel like I look down on the choices others make in this matter. Probably because 1) I'm not totally settled myself over it, and 2) many people have the capacity to balance the two aspects of the holiday well, something I don't think I've done well since having my own family.
There, I think I'm done. Thanks for giving me another perspective, Dan. Glad to hear there are no hard feelings. There certainly aren't any over here.
Wow, lots to think about. I love Christmas! I just a few things I'd like to share. I don't remember when I figured out Santa wasn't real, but I know I was young. My tells me I figured it out all on my own through logic. I told my mom I knew Santa couldn't be real because if he was real then he would be a Mormon but Santa can't be Mormon because he smokes a pipe, therefore Santa must not be real. I was taught about St. Nicholas and believed in the "Christmas Spirit". I think I'll just follow my kids' leads when it comes to Santa. Like AA said if they want to "play along" great but I don't think I'll go to any great lengths. Those should be on Christ and Service. Thats about all I've figured out so far. As long as my kids Love Christmas, I'm a happy Mom!
Kudos to you, sir, for having the courage to discuss these types of topics.
Like others have stated, I couldn't resist sharing my opinion. Rather than leaving a long comment (too late) I wrote an even longer post on my blog and referenced this entry. I hope that's okay. There was no bashing involved, I have nothing but respect for your family's decision.
However, the Flegal family will continue to roll with the Santa tradition. If you're interested to know why, take a peek. Merry Christmas to you and your family.
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. What is this world coming too? It's the parent's responsibility to teach their children well enough so that one holiday out of the year doesn't dissuade a child's belief in Christ or make him a raving over-consumerist.
I can see your point on focusing on the Savior and not the commercialism. That being said, I think it's a bit extreme to completely exclude Santa. In fact it sounds like you are not completely sure that you will considering you said that you will allow decorations and for them to call him magical etc. Another issue you will probably have to deal with is your children telling other children he isn't real. Some parents will have a problem with that so you have to think about how to deal with that. I think moderation is a good rule to have in all things and it's very possible to include both in your celebration. Christ is most certainly our focus, most of our decorations are nativity sets, pictures of the Savior etc. We read a scripture story every night to count down, we do service every day for the 12 days of Christmas. But Santa also visits our home and brings one gift. The rest are from Mom and Dad and family. Santa isn't a huge deal at our house, but we talk about him, write letters to him and let our kids feel the magic. He isn't evil, it's all in how you teach it.
other thoughts:
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2009/12/16/the-simple-dollar-weekly-roundup-the-santa-question-edition/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thesimpledollar+%28The+Simple+Dollar%29
and
http://mashable.com/2009/12/16/connect-santa/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Mashable+%28Mashable%29
how old is your one child? i said i would do or would not do a lot of things as a parent when my only child was young. you may want to wait until your child is 3 and see how fun it is to see the magic in their eyes.
Hey Andrew.
Thank you for your final thoughts. You know I have to spice things up a bit simply because you are Richard's brother. I did mean everything that I said, I obviously could have treaded a little more lightly, but again you're Richard's brother, I know you can handle me, you've put up with him your whole life:)
Just want to let you know that I'm not "anonymous," trying to get in some last words without any consequence.
You're a great guy, good luck making the best decisions you can for your family.
Best Wishes,
Dan
I didn't read all of you comments, you have quite a few of them. But I agree with both sides. I was raised to believe in Santa just like the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. I was the baby and all of my siblings knew the truth and I think they told me that those people weren't real and it was just mom and dad. I don't remember being crushed and it has not shaken my faith in the Gospel. I think families can celebrate both Christmas with Santa and Jesus Christ. My children are too young to understand Santa but I plan on incorporating him in our holiday traditions. I can also see the other side of the coin and how it might be misleading for some children and it might shake their faith. As parents we have the choice as to what we teach our children. But what you teach your children might spoil the fun for other children and families. Tread lightly on other people's traditions. I found your blog from my good friend, Ali Flegal.
Holy guacamole, I'm leaving comment #39! I won't be lengthy here, but I'll have you know I really appreciated your post. It sparked a great dinner conversation on how we want to do Christmas for our family. I love good ol' Kris Kringle same as the next girl, but I'm with you. I think there's definitely a positive way to put Santa on the back burner and make some even more meaningful family traditions. Thanks for your candid and articulate thoughts!
I'll admit it; I haven't read the previous comments. I am in complete agreement that we should focus on Jesus more than Santa on Christmas. However, I think a child's sense of wonder is one of the most wonderful elements of childhood, and it's worth including Santa, the tooth fairy, and other such beings in our culture. I think the Italian version of Jingle bells articulates well what I think we should do about Santa and Jesus sharing the Christmas stage: The first verse is about snow covering the city, and a star announcing that a child was born in a stable between the cow and ass. The chorus continues to focus on Christ, saying that today Jesus was born, that this is a reason to rejoice, and that Christmas will make everyone good. The second verse talks about reindeer in the north pole jingling on their way bringing gifts to all the good children. The last line that follows is, "And from the Alps to the sea, the children down here wait for those gifts that the good Jesus gives them"
You know what else I am sick and tiered off! People lying to their kids faces telling them that those two quarters were left under their pillow by some deranged fairy who exchange the tender for some rotten tooth.
I never spoke to my parents after I found out about the tooth fairy and have since disowned them.
And I've talked to like 400 people at BYU who agree with me on this and half of them were professors with PHD's and stuff.
Young "Anonymous" works himself into extraordinarily zealous self-certainty.
Joe, that don't make no sense, and I even have a PHD and stuff!
P.S. Santa brought me a whole ton of presents and I'm feeling really zealous about him now! (And I am extremely self-certain of his existence more than ever!)
P.S.S. It's not just men who have PHDs and stuff, let's not be chauvinist!
Great post you two. I know I am late posting. But something we all need to think about. I dont think we are going to get rid of Santa, but there needs to be some changes for sure.
Andrew,
I have to admit I could not believe when I heard about this discussion on your post. Since your looking for what people think I will tell you. I could not possibly disagree more with the idea. Most of my thoughts on the matter have been very well summed up by Dan Sharp. I am quite suprised to hear this idea coming from one of the cousin three muskateers. I have several very fond memories at our great grandma Tutu's house when we three would set out on an adventure to go and find santa's sleigh. For years we both believed 100% in Santa Clause and I don't think either of us turned out to bad? I think there are many commercialistic aspects of Christmas that can become a distraction but I don't believe they have to. In the end my biggest problem with the idea is that your not giving your children the OPPORTUNITY to believe in something that can be a truly majical and fun experience. If Santa is only someone who brings you presents then it may not be that important, but there is so much good and fun that comes from Santa Clause. The whole reason I went into film producing is because I love stories. There is so much good that can come from them. But just like most any other good things there can come just as much bad which means that you do need to be careful. I am so so glad that my parents let us believe in Santa Clause and read us exciting fun books like the Polar Express which brought the world of Santa Clause alive as well as giving a very meaningful message. I am also greatful that they taught us about Christ and his birth. I never once got the two confused. They never seemed at all related to me. There are a million things I feel like I could say on the issue but I think I have written enough. In the end I think you bring up some valid points but not enough to make the Santa story all bad. I will forever be a Santa supporter and hope my kids have even a wilder imagination than I did growing up.
-Cousin Jake
Someone recently forwarded this post to me due to a conversation I had with them about this subject. I don't know you but thank you for standing up for what you believe in and what works for your family no matter what anyone else says. I also feel that Santa is too much of a focus. I don't have an issue with children experiencing "magic" or believing in something that is not real for a time, as long as it doesn't detract from the Savior. That is why the Tooth Fairy doesn't bother me as much as Santa. Santa completely detracts from Christ's mission and purpose (as does the Easter Bunny). I don't think Santa needs to be eliminated but he certainly shouldn't be focued on. As far as harming other kids by telling them Santa isn't real, I don't think that's an issue at all. This issue is no different than anything else that is taught in the home. Every family has certain beliefs and principles, which will inevitably differ from other peers and classmates. If we teach our children to respect others' opinions and beliefs, even if they aren't the same as ours, they won't ever fling out such phrases as "Santa isn't real" but might say something like "That's great you believe in Santa. I'm glad he makes Christmas so fun for you." Thanks for this wonderful post. I think you are on the right track.
top [url=http://www.c-online-casino.co.uk/]uk casino[/url] check the latest [url=http://www.casinolasvegass.com/]online casino[/url] manumitted no consign bonus at the chief [url=http://www.baywatchcasino.com/]baywatch casino
[/url].
Post a Comment